Navigating the Art Market with Thomas Bucich

Daring Creatively: Unfiltered is an Australian art podcast where Sydney-based contemporary artist Korynn Morrison picks up the phone, drops a surprise topic into the conversation, and hits record.

In this episode Korynn calls Southern Highlands-based multi-disciplinary artist and former gallery director Thomas Bucich. The surprise topic: Navigating the Art Market.

Thomas has sat on every side of the desk. As an artist making and selling his own work. As a design consultant buying art for high-end collectors. And as the director of Whitewall Art Projects, the Southern Highlands gallery he ran for six years. 

In this honest, unplanned conversation two artists talk about what it really takes to build a gallery relationship, why there is no magic answer to getting into a good gallery, why the gallerist-artist relationship is exactly like dating, the love-hate process of editing a solo show, working across sculpture, drawing and painting without losing your creative voice, and finding a 20-year-old Icarus sketch that suddenly became relevant again.

Thomas has a solo exhibition opening at Grainger Gallery Canberra from June 11th-28th 2026.

If you love art podcasts, conversations about the real art world, or the behind-the-scenes life of a working Australian artist, this one is essential listening.

New episodes drop whenever the call happens.

Thomas Bucich Links:

Website https://www.thomasbucich.com/

Instagram HERE

Join My Inner Circle: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/mailing-list

Visit My Website: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/

Find me on Instagram HERE

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

My conversation today is with my dear friend Thomas Bucich. Now, today's discussion is an interesting one because Thomas has actually sat on both sides of the desk. He was the former gallerist and owner of Whitewall Art Projects, and to this day still continues his very own practice with an upcoming solo exhibition at Granger Gallery this June. Thomas is a multidisciplinary artist whose international career in art and design began in 1990 after moving to Australia from New York. From classical fine arts training at the Art Students League and a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in architectural design from Parsons School of Design in New York City, Thomas's career has been highlighted by clients and collectors from across the globe. Fiersitch produces art in a variety of mediums, including cast bronze, stone, plaster, and manipulated found objects through 2D works on paper and canvas. His choice of materials for the works is driven by the concept of each series he commits to, through exploration and experimentation. The materiality of his work pushes the boundaries of the processes he engages with for the concept to manifest. Whilst exhibiting in various galleries in Australia, Thomas has won major sculpture prizes and commissions for both public and private collections worldwide. Now today's topic I gave him was navigating the art market. And I think you'll find it fascinating his perspective because, like I said at the start, he's seen both sides of this industry. So grab yourself a cupper and let's dive in. Hey guys, welcome to Daring Creatively Unfiltered, where I call up an artist friend, throw a surprise topic into the conversation, and hit record. No plan, no prep, no agenda, just two creatives having a chat. I'm Karin Morrison, Australian artist, cup overflowing personality, and someone who genuinely gets way too excited talking about the creative life. My guests are artists at every stage of the journey. And the conversations that happen when nobody's performing, those are the ones that we really need to hear. So grab a coffee, get into your studio, and come hang with us. This is Daring Creatively Unfiltered. Let's go. How are you? How's the weather there? Is it chilly?

SPEAKER_03 2:36

The weather here is freezing.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Oh, that cold. You're like one hour from me.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

I know.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

It's nuts.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

It's like five five degrees different.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Oh, that's insane. Because you're still in you are still in. Are you in Barrel or are you still around?

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yeah, we're in Barrima.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Oh, you are in Barrima, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Are you Are we are we recording this or is this?

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Oh, we're totally recording this. This is how it rolls. Very impromptu. Very impromptu. Very casual. Are you um that's what I was gonna ask because I've what been watching all of your um like workshop stuff that you're doing with the equine sculptures and all of that. Are they your horses?

SPEAKER_03 3:27

No, they're one of our neighbors who's a great um equestrian facility, about three minutes down the road. So we head over to her property and draw horses there, and then we come back to my studio and sculpt.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Oh my god. Oh, I'm totally gonna get into that today. I want to know so much more about how these workshops have unfolded because I've been watching them since you started them.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Yeah, it's been a it's been a nice organic process, which has been great. They kind of develop themselves.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, it's funny how like you're on the other side of gallery gallery ownership now, and it's like you've got this like kind of sacred space back for yourself. And it's like it's almost like um I don't know, it's like the universe opened up. It it like I'm a big fan of everything happens for a reason, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Um yeah, it's kind of again, I think I believe in the organic process, trying things, putting things out there. I think because I yeah, I see creativity as a multidisciplinary thing. It just kind of moving your energy from one thing to another thing.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

And do you know that was so interesting that you say that because before every phone call I make, I jot down like just some like little thoughts or little gems that I think about when I think of the person I'm about to speak about. And I don't actually go onto their websites and piece together their artist statement or anything like that. I just write down kind of my own thoughts about the person so that the conversations stay really authentic. And do you know what I wrote down for you? I wrote, Thomas is a perfect example of someone who has a distinct creative voice across multiple mediums. Experimentation. They do. And I've always thought about that. Like ever since I I mean, just I will do like a little intro. Um, like when we're when we're not talking, I'll do an actual intro about who you are and what your practice is like and fill everyone in on the backstory as to how we got to know each other. Um but every every time I look at your work, it's so interesting how I can see your drawings, I can see your sculptures that have that magnificent blue pigment that you use, and then I can see your drawings. And to me, they are all like this compounded, energetic, um fluid poetry. That's how I see them.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Interesting. Yeah, it's good to hear someone else express that or verbalize it. Yeah, because I find when I'm making it, I feel like I'm um a split personality running all over the place from from sculpting bronze through to drawing and painting and teaching workshops. But yeah, I find people do comment that they can cut they kind of see a signature fingerprint through the various um modalities of it all, which is great.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

I'm curious actually, no, like you're in the process of um putting together your show for Granger. When is that again?

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yeah, so that show opens June 11th. Oh, so in Canberra.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, so close. That's just around the corner.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

Which is which is yeah. So now I'm getting to the great part, which I love. I love the like this last month or two of crazily putting it all together. And I kind of I kind of get out of my own way and just let it all happen. So this is the part where I stop thinking and then I just kind of like let the work produce itself.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Oh, that's really interesting because I've always wondered about with you, when you are putting together a full show of work, because you work across so many different disciplines, how do you actually structure that mentally for yourself? Like, how do you get around jumping from thing to thing? Do you start with like one overarching um theme? Like, how do you start?

SPEAKER_03 7:41

The theme kind of develops. I think, I think the one thing that works for me is um undiagnosed ADHD tendencies. I love it. Because I'm just all over the place. I've got all these ideas coming. I'm writing, I write a lot. Um, as I'm going, as I'm making work physically, concepts start flowing, and I hear words and concepts and ideas. So the whole thing kind of um it's kind of like playing jazz. It kind of just evolves and it's um it's structured, but it's not structured. Oh, it's structured, but but there's a freedom in it to allow things to happen.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

So when you do get to this like pointy end, like I find it was interesting. I was having a phone call. Who was it that I was on the phone with the other day? We were talking about who was it? Oh god, the person's left my mind now. But we were talking about when you get to the pointy end, oh, Marissa Bel Gonzalez. That's who I was talking to. And she was talking about, you know, the moment you're in the process of that final stretch of a solo show. And inevitably what happens, I don't know if this happens to you, but when you finish all the work, you then inevitably look at it all and you go through like this phase of a couple of days where you really hate it all and you're like, oh, the self, the self-doubt creeps in. You're like, I don't know if I should put that in. Oh, none of this is working. You fully overthink your entire last 12 months of your existence.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

Yes. Yeah, I definitely go through that. The love-hate. You love it one minute, you hate it the next. Yeah, and um you often if I yeah, I'll often pull things at the end out. I'm not 100% sure. Because I don't think it's good to just load the show up with everything. I think you have to be a heavy, heavy editor on on your own work.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Does Granger do a lot of editing for you as well? Like do they curate things or do you do a lot of that?

SPEAKER_03 9:43

I haven't yet at this point, but I haven't given them the final the final list of things because that'll happen. I'll be working up until I have to submit everything, pretty much. Yeah. And that's that's usually what I do. I'll, you know, I try not to arrive with wet paint, but I'm pretty close to doing that, usually.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

We all we all secretly have those couple of pieces that couldn't be released.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

One little less, one last stroke or one last yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

I get it. So how much of a percentage of like sculpture to drawing to like what are you what is this show predominantly?

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Um that still remains to be seen. So I'm still not sure. Because again, yeah, I'm going through the culling process. I feel like the pieces need to talk to each other. Um and um I've kind of reworked some older works because I think I don't feel work has like a date on it. I think um I think that's something you and I have talked about in the past in the gallery was about like yeah, because a work was done this year or last year, five years ago, doesn't really have any relevance to its validity or its power or its ability to be sold, because you know, people I don't think people come and look at the date of things before they buy them. They look at the work and if they're moved by it, then they purchase. So I kind of yeah, I have this thing where I kind of it's like I'm a conversation between the work. And yeah, if they're talking to each other and it feels right for one exhibit, then they go in together.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

And I think as work as well, like I think artists get caught on, or at least because I'm doing a little bit of mentoring of people as well, and it seems to be a thing that because our works change us as people, right? So we get to the end of a collection of work and we feel like a completely different person than when we started it. So inevitably the next collection of work pivots again, and you get this sense of looking back at previous work, and at least I do. I have a bit of a love-hate relationship. It's almost like, oh, well, that was the old me and this is the new me. And it's like finding a balance between learning that that work still has, you know, substance to it. Someone is still gonna love that, even if it's different from how you inside feel now about your work.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Yeah. And I think, yeah, without that work, you wouldn't have gotten to this new work.

unknown 12:15

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

So I think you have to kind of like move through the whole process. But sometimes I find, yeah, some things are so different that they're like irrelevant to each other. But sometimes I find older works informed pieces. Like I found some drawings that I did probably 20 years ago and kind of forgot about. And then I started working, it's I've been working on this Icarus series in sculpture and drawing. And um so it's like a broad theme that can go lot from abstraction to realism. But I f yes, I've been working on this Icarus theme, placed it in the Kangaro Valley Sculpture Prize, had three pieces down there. Oh, fantastic. And then I found this drawing from I think it was over 20 years ago of an Icarus sketch that I did, and I was like, ooh, this is still relevant, but what I drew in that sketch I want to pursue now after sculpting it. So it's kind of yeah, just bringing these things back and forth. Like all the all the work kind of exists in your memory. And I think we just tap into things and then reform them.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, that's do you know what? Now that you say that, I okay, so that Icarus work that you found from 20 years ago, do you remember doing it? And it was it intentionally informing your work the entire time, or has it been like one of those future self breadcrumbs that was drawn 20 years ago for your future self?

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Yeah. Just a random sketch that was put. I have a folder of just raw like loose raw sketches. And this was just something that was in that folder of a drawing that was good enough to keep. Because I I throw away most of my drawings. I I'm always culling and getting rid of things. I only keep what I think's good good enough. But um this one kind of was in that pile and then I Yeah, and and it was after I started Icarus as the second, as the series, but back then it was just a random sketch.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

That's so interesting, isn't it? We have these um uh we we leave these breadcrumbs for the future version of us all the time. And it's like if you have a look at I mean, I've been forced to do this lately because I'm going back to like more of a conceptual, like thinking about the undercurrent of, you know, all of my work and kind of where the history of it lies and what has been there right from the start. And it's so interesting, even when you look back over the course of say 10 years, there is like this undercurrent or this little like obsession that has been there the entire time. And it's just coming out in different ways, but then you land and you're like, oh god, why didn't I see that all the way back then?

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yeah. Well, maybe you weren't ready for it back then.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

Well, that's right. You're leaving it.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Yeah, now it's now it's relevant or more relevant, but it was always there.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah. But I think that some work is is ahead of us, and it's like you see, you know, for example, you you go into a gallery and you see a work that you you can't relate to at the time. And then years later, someone says something, and it's like your your brain then transports you back to like that work that you've seen. So I do think that the nature of art is is that it it kind of has such such of its own life separate to us, and it's like I feel like it's always 10 steps ahead of us in a way.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Yeah. Well, I guess that's kind of the muse, isn't it? Yeah. That's it's kind of it has its own life and it taps you on the shoulder sometimes. And sometimes we can't tap into it, other times we do tap into it.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Yeah, it's interesting, and it's like I was having a conversation the other day with um Holly Eva, who's uh an artist up around my area. She's just had a solo show down at Jumbled. And one of the things that we were talking about is is that like she didn't use the word muse, but we were more talking about how um it's an energy that kind of no one that's not creative, like people that aren't creative, they don't understand this incessant, this incessant obsession that we all have. That we it it's not like we have to choose every day to do art. It is something that just it has to come out of us. It's 10 steps ahead of us. We're trying to catch up with this thing that is pulling us. And funnily enough, like, do you know what? In jumping on here today, I had like this whole like neat topic because based off all of our voice messages the other day, um, I thought after our long-winded Instagram like text thread, I thought, well, shit, we've already discussed everything.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

We've talked about that.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

But but we're gonna we're gonna go back there. We're gonna talk about navigating the art market. So that's your surprise topic for today. Because I think it's interesting for you. You've been on both sides. You've been um the gallery director and curator. You've dealt with other artists, which I think maybe you've probably got some gems to put in there for artists who are trying to approach galleries and potentially are doing it in the wrong ways. Um, but I feel like your perspective of the current art market is quite unique because you are navigating both sides of it.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Yeah, it's been an interesting journey for myself. And again, it kind of happened. Um I keep using the word organically, but that actually is how these things keep happening, I seem to think. But um, yeah, my my background is I studied architecture and fine art in New York. Yep. A million years ago. And I I had a fine I had a um a design practice, mainly doing interior design for luxury homes and restaurants and things like that. But but always had an art practice as well, which I which I kept totally separate. Um so through that practice too, I was dealing with I was buying art for clients or recommending art from an aesthetic sense, but also from my art history background and my study of fine art. So I've so I've been on that end too with collectors, so hot like very high-end collectors of work. And then making my own work in the background while I was running a design practice and selling my work through galleries, and then by kind of circumstance, um, we ended up opening pop-up galleries everywhere from Lara down to h down here in Barrel in the Southern Highlands and out in Avalon on the northern beaches. So Kylie and I just had this idea one day to start doing these pop-up art galleries. Some of them were just for my own work, others included other artists' work, depended on the venue. And then we ended up with a bricks and mortar gallery here in the Southern Highlands for six years.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

Yeah, which is obviously how I got to know you.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Yeah, so that was White Wall Art Projects, um, which we decided to finally close in September when our lease ended. So which was happy and sad.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

But but it's been a really interesting perspective from my side, because I feel yeah, I've been on both sides of the desk, or three sides of the desk, as kind of an advisor, as a gallerist, and advising other artists, and then as an artist myself. So it's been a really eye-opening experience over the years. But um, yeah, I think the more I know, the less I know as well. Because there I'm I'm finding there is no magic answer to, you know, like most artists, 99% of artists is how do I get into a good gallery? And I actually don't after knowing what I know, I think there actually is no answer to that question. Because everyone's journey is different, everyone's art is different. The dynamic between a gallerist and an artist has a million variations, and I say it's kind of like dating.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Oh my gosh, that's so true. That's 100% true.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

You can't just go up to someone and say, hey, let's go out and fall in love. It's like the gallerist and the artists kind of have to fall in love, um, ideally, you know, in a in a good relationship, gallery artist relationship. Um yes, I kind of feel like every artist has to find their own way, and that's why there is no actual answer to the question. And we like there's steps that we can pursue, like you know, don't walk into a gallery at an opening and tell the gallerist you want to show with them. There's like all that obvious. There's like the obvious things that we all kind of already know already. But I think the actual answer lies somewhere outside of that. And it's it's that um it's a it's that relationship building that that is actually what needs to happen.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

And I think as well, like in saying all of that, it really comes down to how you are showing up in the world as an artist, the most important thing you can be is authentically you. You know, when you when you arrive in any new dating situation or getting to know anyone in the industry, if you are grounded and you know exactly who you are and you are unapologetically authentic about, you know, what you want out of the industry. If you know, like that, like I think this is the thing. Like when I sit down with coaching clients, it's For me, people tend to go straight to their work and go, my work is all the issue, right? My work's not strong enough and all of this. And it's like just stop. Let's just pause. Okay, let's get to know you first. And then underneath it all, you can see the self-doubt. You can see the energy that they're taking into the studio. You can see that they're not creating boundaries in their life. And all of that then sums up to this one thing that's like, who are you? Do you know who you are and what you want? Because when you know who you are and what you want, well, then it's very easy to have a conversation. And it's also extremely easy to go, you're for me, you're not for me. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think the authenticity is a big thing if you're if you're trying to be something or you're modeling yourself on some other artist that you think that that's what they're doing, which is usually not correct. Um, yeah, it's it's visible.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

And I think people like like when we were talking the other day, we were talking about um, and of course we're not going to mention any names on here, but we can there there are people in the industry that are very good at performing. They are very good at looking polished, they are very good at making sure everything looks perfectly put together, that work is selling constantly, that they are up on this pedestal that is untouchable. And the more you peel back the layers of onion of this industry, the more you realize that people are just people. People have their own patterns, their own little quirks, their own little insecurities. Nobody is perfect. Nobody knows exactly what they're doing. We are all navigating this industry as these um somewhat clueless little artists who are just trying to find their way. You know what I mean? And it's like I'm I think it's like acting.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

I think it's like the acting profession. It's, you know, you have super megastars, and often those people are so insecure, you know, they look like they own the world, but they're often insecure people and um kind of relying on the praise and and um support of a big crew of people to get through every day. And some make it, some don't make it. And it's I guess it's the same in any field where yeah, the authenticity comes through. There's a level where you have to be an actor at some point and put yourself out there and get uncomfortable. You have to go to the openings, you've got to talk, you've got to speak to people, you have to ask uncomfortable questions. Um Yeah, but I think it's all I think it's all of that.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

And so when you look at, like if you were to say go back um, you know, over the years of say Whitewall projects, and you were to think about all the artists that floated in and out of um your stable there, what are some of the things you think people did um really right? Were there some were there some key things that you could see in certain artists that you thought, okay, I really appreciate that. That makes my job easier, that that person's gonna go somewhere. I can see that. Like, was there any little things that you picked up on? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Curation and yeah, I think there needs to be a level of um well, yeah, what let me remind. Yeah, I think there's a real vulnerability in being an artist, putting yourself out there. So it's like hats off to everyone to even get out there and you know push their art because it's very personal. It's um there's all these fears and vulnerability behind it behind it for a lot of people. Some people are really confident and don't have that, but I think the majority of artists do, regardless of their qual of the quality of their work. They can be fantastic and be quite vulnerable or insecure about their work. Um but I think once yeah, once they get out there again, when there's an authenticity behind the work and you start to see the process and the life of pr of the artist making the work, I think it needs to be followed up by like a real level of professionalism. And it's not kind of good enough to say, Oh, I'm not good at I'm not good on the computer, or I'm not good at opening emails, or whatever. Because unfortunately that's what we rely on. We don't rely on you know people bringing portfolios in and you know, flip flipping through hundreds of images in real life. We're kind of relying on technology. And the yeah, the most frustrating thing I found was people who couldn't attach quality images to an email, which is kind of like you know emailing 101, you know, it's like thing and then saying, Oh, I'm sorry I'm not good at this. And it's like, well, you've got to get good at this if you want to be an artist showing in a gallery. Um so I think all that, whether you're doing competitions online, approaching galleries, showing your own work on social media or on your website, I think there's gotta be a level of proficiency. And if you can't do it, find a friend, find your 19-year-old kid or someone else to um to do that for you. Outsource it. If you can't do it professionally, you have to outsource it. Yeah. But that's probably the number one thing that yeah, that that stood out for me is that like or some people couldn't send an email, some couldn't reply to an email. The some artists we would chase for their photos and you know, the the exhibits opening in two days, we still don't have their details. So again, it's just like a level of professionalism has to be quite strong in order to be taken seriously. And to continue, you know, when an artist is really easy to work with, um they get shown more, you know, their work gets exposed more because it's easy and it just flows and it's not you're not pulling teeth every time you're trying to exhibit something. And I I think also it affected me as an artist as well, being like on the gallerist side of the desk. I kind of saw, ooh, wow, this is really what it takes, you know, to be a good artist. I'm finding I'm trying to be the best artist I can be with the galleries that I show if, you know, you know, reply to them as soon as they ask for something and you know, provide good quality images, provide valuable information or whatever. Yeah. Because they're yeah, they're not just working with you, they're working with 20, 30, 50, 100 other artists. So it's kind of you've got to take that self. I think artists need to take that like self um importance, you know, and like the neediness out of the situation and realize, hey, this gallery's dealing with a lot of other people, it's not just me in the show. Yeah, 100%. To get it out there and be efficient. Yeah, yeah, you've got to you've got to kind of value the curator and the gallerist time because they're not just sitting there all day waiting for your email to pop up.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Yeah, that's exactly right. That's what I was gonna say. They're busy people. And I think the thing is, is that um, you know, especially with the market as um as strained as it currently is. I mean, it is and it isn't. Yeah, I mean, every time I think, oh, things are a bit tight, you know, things are a bit tough, then I find out some work sells, or I have a friend that sells, you know, 18 paintings in 18 minutes, and you just think, well, you know, I just think we have to be so careful about um jumping to extremes. Like we need to stop going, oh my God, everything's falling apart, when it really isn't. It's like that um that example where they they get a piece of paper and they put a bug on the piece of paper and they draw a circle around the bug, and the bug won't leave the circle, even though it's a flat piece of paper. And so it's like every time someone, you know, says or pushes back or says the art market can't carry a price rise, that you know, it's not possible to do that at the moment. Everything's really tight. I think, well, uh like, is that just me being the bug stuck in the circle? Or should I just expand the circle and go, okay, well, let's just gain some perspective.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

If that's what I'm being told by the market, like I think looking at the money, Yeah, and I think I think there's more than one market. Yes. You know, there's there isn't like everyone has a thing about the art market, but they're you know, are you talking about the Christie's art market in New York City that's selling $20 million paintings? Or you're talking about the local Australian art market where pieces sell for $500 or $5,000 or $50,000. It's a you like there is no art market because often the statistics are based on something that's not relevant to what you're doing. Yes, and I think you kind of find your own niche in the in your own market.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, and I think as well, like I think we need to say more about the segments of the art market from what you see, because it's like we do have a very clear um, like even the commercial galleries, right? So let's use this as an example. We've got commercial galleries that, you know, like Sullivan and Strump Station Gallery. They're obviously like the top tier of Australian galleries, right? We have other very good commercial galleries, like for example, Curatorial Co., that have another market which really takes advantage of um interior designers, architects, um, corporate projects like hotels and things like that. But it's it's in that sphere of um like interior, interior designers and things like that. And you think about how difficult it is for a commercial gallery to almost pivot from like these one-off collectors to how to nurture these ongoing collectors for their artists that are gonna come back time and time and time again. And then you have the whole other side of things, which is the institutional side of things. And so I think this is the thing. We actually, most of us, have no knowledge about any of this. So if you can shed any light on this, I think all that I know is based off people that I've spoken to. So it's like Chinese whispers. I'm like, it's really work though, you know?

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah, it's true. There's a lot happening behind the scenes. And you know, again, if you're an if you're an artist who just grew up in a normal lifestyle and your parents didn't have Picasso's hanging in the dining room, um you're you're only familiar with certain levels of buying, of you know, what our consultancy is, what what gallery, you know, what level of galleries people buy from, buying from auction houses versus buying from a gallery. You know, there's there's so many options of of how art is sold. I think if if we bring it to that, it's like, how's art sold? Well, there's lots of ways that art is sold. Everything from, like I said, you know, a $200 million canvas selling at Christie's auction house. Or it could be a $500 something or other sold in like a local regional hall, you know. Um and there's and there's artists who sell online consistently and make a cons they make an income, like a decent income from selling works of $500 to $2,000 a pop consistently online, and no one really knows who they are. They're just they sell online, they have a good commercial value. They're generally more graphic, like graphic style artwork, I find. But it's got a commercial value, and you can make a living doing that. And if that floats your boat and you're happy doing that, then you've kind of found the key to success because like that's your success. Where other people want to be known and shown in a high profile gallery and and have an academic side that they're that they're pursuing. Um they don't, you know, then won't pursue the commercial avenue. They'd rather not sell their work and have a part-time job or a full-time job and keep their art more pure um and conceptual.

unknown 34:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

And if something set something sells, that's fine. So I think again, that comes back to your thing about authenticity, where when you know what your art means to you, if it's about having fun producing work, selling it, getting in other people's homes, then that's your authenticity. If your authenticity is you're you're creating art like poetry, and whether it stays in your studio or goes out to a gallery or an institution, um, then that's you that's kind of the other extreme, right? And then there's then there's a million variations between those two. Between like the poetry of art that's that's a bit um on the academic end, and then the commercial people just selling velocity.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yes, and then I think there is something to say about um I mean, finding this balancing point. I mean, I um, you know, I look at this very fine line between um producing, which, you know, I think there I really do think that there is depending on your what how you define success, right? For your career. But I do think that at least in my eyes, it's like there's a fine balance between oversaturating the market. And that it's like, I know for me, it's like I'm almost where I really want to go is I don't want to just produce work for the sake of producing work, you know. I I would be so happy to just have like one big show every few years that really changes people. And yes, to go back to more of that conceptual basis. Like I would love to see me being able to produce like the gigantic works that I really desperately want to make that are, you know, freaking 10 meters long and three meters high. But of course, when you want to make works like that, it's like, well, that's not something that goes and fits in someone's home. That's like a whole nother thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

And so And you're not gonna knock that out for your next show. Correct. You have to kind of live with that piece for years and stare at it for days and days on end.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

And then at the same time, you've got people that are just so prolific that produce so much good work, and it sits below that $5,000 mark and it just sells straight away, and they go to fairs and they, you know, they survive from art fair to art fair and they travel all over the world. And I think that that is a version of success as well. And I think and then you see the like we were talking the other day about how many different ways people are using this art market to their advantage, right? Like you saw, I wish I I knew what this whole thing is, but basically they got all these trucks and they it was like an art fair on wheels. So people hide these trucks, and in the back of the truck, you walk up the ramp of the truck and it was set up like a gallery. And these trucks just traveled from city to city and they parked in a street and it was like a traveling art fair. And I thought that is brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I I look at the like the passage gallery in the middle of city. It's not even manned. It's like a voyeuristic thing. You look through the windows, you experience the work. And I think like I don't know anything about their business model, so you know, I can't comment, but I just think how clever is that?

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Like so many different ways.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

You mentioned like the business model. Often these things look amazing, whether they're commercially viable or not is another is another story. I think that's something that that's important for artists to look at as well, is like where they're spending their time and putting their energy. If you're wanting to sell, like do your research, does this venue actually sell? Is it you know, is the opening just the friends and family of the artist coming to the opening having a free class of whatever?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

Or, you know, is it a commercial entity where you're actually going to get there and and sell the work that you want to sell? Or if you're just happy to show it, some people are just happy to get their work out and be seen, then that's that's all cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

But and I think there's a phase for that. Like I think as well, we need to like go, yeah, take it back to like the people that are right out of art school, and your your sole purpose is just to generate as much experience for yourself as humanly possible. And in those early days, it is. It's you're still finding your voice. You're throwing a lot of shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, and then you're looking at all of that stuff and you're going, well, what part of it actually lights me up? Like, where is the nugget in all of this stuff? Because that's what it's like. It's like the big the beginning stage of your career is almost like a garage sale, right? Like you got this lawn with all this shit all over it, and nothing really has a structure yet. You're still figuring things out, but eventually, over time, that garage sale begins to create these really nice little piles that kind of look like something. And then I feel like the longer you go, the more time and the more consistent you are that you get with your work. It hones into one nice, neat line that is all of you. And I don't believe that that line stays straight. I believe that, you know, we're never at a point that we know our work or we know our voice. We have to leave so much space for things to pivot. But that only happens with creating the work, correct?

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So like you hope that there is evolution and that what you thought was great when you graduated uni may not be great in five years because you know that's you don't want to fall, you don't want to really fall in love with your own work with your own work. You want to have an objective, objective kind of view of it.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Yeah, and I think that's a good segue to start talking about perhaps like some of the mentorship that you're um currently doing. Because I think one of the things, um, like just to edify you a little bit, one of the things that you and Kylie were both very good at is you have always had this really gentle, nurturing energy about you. And I feel like one of the really amazing things about White Wall projects, especially within my early days of my career, was you really did support artists and you operated in a way that you created this very safe space for people to come in and talk about, you know, what they were thinking about and asking what worked and what didn't work. And I think like what a natural progression for you to now filter into doing some mentoring. How's that going for you at the moment?

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Yeah, that's that's kind of an interesting thing. It was just a progression. Um I think back in the day as a designer as well, I always um I worked with a lot of artists with commission works or I'd buy art directly from artists from my design clients. Um and being an artist myself, I kind of approach artists differently to the way a commercial gallerist probably would. I've yeah, have a a bit of a different approach just from you know my own experience. But yeah, what happened yeah, I get I guess again it's just that it's the authentic conversations with artists like that come in who were genuine about their work, genuine about how what they wanted to do, how they wanted to show it. And I never saw showing people's work as a possessive thing. I always saw it as, oh well, this is one, you know, this is one venue, let's try it, see if it works, may work, may not work. And I have like an open, like an open-ended approach to that. Um, yeah. Um I just think you know, galleries need to be there to support artists and if they work well together, then that's great. But yeah, the conversation kept going. Um I initially started I think I started kind of doing workshops first, where I had so many people asking me, Oh, could you you know, I'd love to try working with bronze. Could you know I paint or I'm a I work in ceramics. Um, I'd like to try a different material. Could you sh could you teach me how to do bronze? And I'm like, well, how do I teach someone?

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

How do I teach someone how to do bronze? And and I also do plasti work in plaster directly. Um so I was like, ooh, wow, yeah. At first I just kind of l laughed and said, Oh yeah, ha ha. But after a while enough people started asking for it. And then I was like, maybe I should do a workshop. And I started doing these workshops in my studio, and numbers started building up, and like two years down the track, I think it is two or three years now. Um yeah, doing workshops regularly once or twice a month out of my studio in the Southern Highlands. And then that led to curiosity, talking to artists, and artists asking me specific questions or asking me for guidance. And then I just put out this mentorship offer. Um, which again, I'm a mentor based on my design background, my artist background, and my gallerist background. So it's kind of a different, a slightly different approach because there's a rawness to the art part of it, but then there's a uh commercial sensibility as well. And so I kind of try to guide people through that, through the the two sides, um, which I think are really important because you need to know where you're where you're going commercially. Yes. And creatively. So that's kind of yeah. I'm now talking to people, you know, primarily online, but then I also have artists coming down for one day private tutorials and we'll like we'll do we'll work in raw plaster and we'll just sculpt together.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

And during that process we're talking about the galleries and philosophy and meditation and whatever else comes up along the way. Yeah, so it's just been yeah, again, I've been trying to keep it like this open-ended, flexible, and um like every session's based on what the what the individual person needs and wants to address. So it's kind of like a project. Yeah. So I don't have like a scripted format that I use. It's more like, okay, what do you you know, what do you need? Let's take on it.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

You're you're literally creating a sculpture with your clients. Like what you're what you're doing, they are the sculpture. They're coming in going, look, I'm currently this like this block, and I want to be formed into this artist. And Thomas is gonna come in, and Thomas is going to get rid of all of the shit around that doesn't need to be there, right?

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Or or at least I'll give them the tools to get rid of their own shit.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Maybe that's more like it.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

Where yeah, because I love that. I I always try to keep my own fingerprint off, you know, like my own stamp off of it, and try to like I'm trying to pull out the authenticity or whatever's hidden in there.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yeah, I find it interesting. Like I think from where I approach mentoring, and it's like I don't I don't even promote that I do it. I just have people that kind of fall into my life, and it again, it's kind of an organic thing. But I find it really interesting and in the the thing that I've I cleverly notice with people that it it must be something that I'm like just attuned to, is what I pick up on is where people's energy is at and what energy they are bringing into their practice. And so it's almost like I see like all of these external things that are affecting their natural flow. And then I just help structure them, I help them find their place in this little area over here, I help them create boundaries, and then it's amazing how when you get all of the fluff that is the sticky stuff that is stopping people from stepping to the next level, when you clean up all of that, the work, it you have nothing to do with pushing their work to the next level. It's like they do that all on their own. These miraculous things happen with their work. Not because you've focused on their work, but because you've focused on all the other stuff that just needs a little bit of clear editing.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Yeah, 100%. No, I'm 100% in agreement with you. And I'm so excited to see that you're doing all of that. And like I said, and I know T doesn't listen to my podcast either. So we're safe talking about his surprise birthday present. Um, although, do you know what's gonna happen? He'll see your name on the podcast. He'll go, I'll listen to this one. If he if he finds out that's okay. We're gonna, we're gonna do it. We are, we're gonna do a a private because T is so um, even everything that he does with all of his signage, he he loves like sculptural creative things. And I keep saying to him, you would be so good as a sculptor.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

It'll be great to get him from 2D to 3D. Yeah, but that'll be a nice, a nice process for him.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Do you know what he did for me for my birthday? It was so gorgeous. So because he's like his technical, logical brain, he figured out a way of 3D printing uh like our wedding photo into a sculpture. It was it was amazing. And then he gave it to me for my birthday, and it was really special, and he worked so long on it. And I was like, see, I told you you love sculpture. So we're definitely going to tee up um a time to come down and do a little private lesson because I've secretly wanted to get my hands back into the bronze for so long, and it's been since national arts school. Right. So it's been a really long time. And the reason I want to do it is because I'm genuinely a little bit fearful of sculpture. Like I find it so difficult to think about things from multiple angles. Yeah. Um, so I think it would be a really interesting challenge for me that I really need to kind of overcome. So I mean really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Yeah, because you have some knowledge as well, you'll get into it quicker and deeper. Yeah. And and the beauty is like we're in a working studio, so I've got, you know, like a pretty much a whole art store worth of supplies and materials.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Oh, that's full.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

We just kind of like pull out things when we need it, you know, like if someone's doing a collage piece or if they need references or um it's kind of it's a different thing working in like an atelier-based situation where it's like this working environment rather than a classroom.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

That's really interesting that you say that. And I was actually going to ask about um your training in New York and whether you feel that that was vastly different to kind of the art education that's being taught in Australia, because I don't have a reference point. So I'm curious to know about your thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

Right. Um Yeah, I think even the art education here, because I've always liked again spoken to artists and students and um lots of different professionals along the way over the years I've been in Australia. Um, but I think art education's changing here too. It seems to be going a bit back to a bit more old school where people are actually learning how to cast bronze again. Um in Sydney you can actually take a bronze casting course, which is fantastic. Where that didn't exist for a while. Um, you know, people are there's a lot of life drawing going on. There's I think people are getting back on the tools where for a while people were just like, oh well, I'm just an artist and I just make whatever, but they didn't actually have any discipline of mastering um processes, which I think is important at some point. I think it's great to be creative and to be loose and free to make whatever you want. But I think to be able to master a craft, like the craft of your art is equally as important. Yes. And although I love conceptual work, you know, I really love great conceptual work, I love digital work. Um, so I'm open to all of that, but I do think learning a craft or like the craft that you're working in is really important. And I think that's what I'm trying to do. Like in my workshops, I have from one-day to three-day workshops, and it's kind of like you're getting the hex because I'm teaching people the shortcuts, I'm teaching them things that aren't um they're kind of not necessarily the correct academic way to do something, but it gets you there and it's coming through my experience.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Whether it's making plaster, bronze, and I use materials the way they're not meant to be used, but they work. Yeah. So it's kind of like giving people quick hacks that within a day they can produce something great that they're happy with, and and that's interesting. Producing their own, you know, producing their own object.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

But I think that there's something really important about that way of teaching in that what you are actually doing is you're teaching people how to play. And I think I think that that's kind of the biggest barrier. And whilst I don't do like heaps of workshops and things anymore, um one of the hardest things is actually to get people to just like drop the perfectionism and the trying to get to the end result and just to be able to sit in the process of playing and getting to know what lights you up. And it's like even um like even the high school students that I I um that I support at the moment, it's in this current like climate where everything is instantaneous for them, just getting them to rest in the unknown is very, very challenging. It takes a lot of practice for young people to learn how to not look ahead and how to just be okay in the messy middle and in the process.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Yeah. Yeah, like just enjoying like taking a day just to enjoy the process.

unknown 53:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

Rather than like having to need the you know, the finished product of the result or the artist statement or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Yeah, 100%. So I think um what what I'll get you to do actually, um, once we wrap up here, I'll get you to send me all your details for all the workshops and whatever links you want to put in the show notes and um also your exhibition details, so I can pop that in there. Um, but I am 100% going to head down to Canberra for your show. Um, I'm really, really excited to see the evolution of um your work as a full show because I've only ever seen your work in a group show setting. So I'm really excited to see the full curation of all the aspects of you.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

Um and I'm trying, I'm trying to create it as a as an environment.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Oh, perfect.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

So kind of like this environment of objects that talk to each other, kind of the way I create, or the way we talked about pulling the show together. I want the actual physicality of the exhibit to be this conversation where these pieces are talking to each other across the room. Granger has this have this amazing new um large warehouse space. Yeah. So I think the work's gonna really have room to breathe in it. But um, so there'll be objects, there'll be two-dimensional pieces on the wall. Um and yeah, I'm hoping there'll be like a dialogue between the work and then the viewer becomes the the next part of the dialogue.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

Walking amongst it all.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Oh, fantastic. I'm really excited. Um now, before we wrap up, is there anything else you would like to leave people with? A final thought on navigating the current art market? Seems as that was our somewhat loose theme of today. I feel like we've gone down a good.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

We kind of avoided the theme well, but that was good.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Oh, we did, we did talk about so come on, just throw in something really political at the end.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

A bit of navigation.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Throw in something interesting for us to chew on.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Okay, really interesting. I think a lot of so here this has been my own personal experience. When the market when the market seems to drop or stall, artists all all kind of default to I better make smaller, cheaper work. And they're like, I'll make something small, and they're like, they send these little tiny miniature things to you, and everything's five hundred dollars or less. And the reality of the situation is when the market stalls, um people only people with disposable income purchase art. That's been mine.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Oh Do you know what? I freaking love this.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

So I say don't go small and safe. Put yourself out there, do your best work, and you know, make it big and expensive because the reality is the people who are suffering with you know first mortgage, you know, first home loan mortgages and and that are an outbuying art. So put it out there, sell to, you know, sell to people who are or cash, you know. Yeah, cash and you know Essentially we don't suffer from Yeah, we don't want to become the bug.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

The bug that's stuck in the little circle on the piece of paper.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

Exactly. Or you know, the elephant, the elephant tied with a little rope and he doesn't move. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 57:04

But I think that's my thing, yeah. Like be big, be loud, you know, be bigger and louder. Don't shrink. Because if the next step, you know, the next step from shrinking is disappearing. So put your like put your best work out there.

SPEAKER_00 57:19

Mate, that is the best advice. I love that. Oh my gosh, that's even energized me. I'm like, oh I'm gonna get a pack up, go to the shoe this afternoon, I'm gonna pull out the bigger.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

Get out the big get out the big boards.

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Get out, get out that big panel. In actual fact, I said to I'm sending some work over to the US, and they said to me, Yeah, we're happy to take some like mid-size work and we'll potentially put it in Seattle Art Fair. And I was like, well, mid-size means different to me. So then I just I emailed the back. I was like, so I have these two panels, they're like 140 by 120. Is that good for you? And they're like, Yeah, sure. And it's like some people would think that is a big work. But for me, that's that's not big for me. Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, oh goody, yes, I could get really excited about these landscapes now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

Um you have to kind of like step out of your own comfort level and realize other people's comfort level could be a lot bigger.

unknown 58:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:20

And larger, and larger and more expensive.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Exactly. Exactly. We've got to keep um keep expanding our own um comfort zone a little bit more, don't we? Um, but thank you so much for. Thanks, Gary.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

That was great.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Yeah, this has been a lot.

SPEAKER_03 58:36

It's always great to chat, and this was fun.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Yeah, yes, as always. It was good to get it on recording. I feel like every time we talk, we go down these rabbit holes, and I'm like, damn it, I missed it. So I got it today. I got it today.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

Thanks, thanks for inviting me.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

Yeah, no worries. I'll chat with you soon, and um, yeah, I'll swing you my email. Oh, you've probably already got it, but I'll swing you my email again and you can send me whatever you want me to put in the show notes. All right, sweet. Talk soon.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Bye.