Daring Creatively: Unfiltered

How Life Informs Art with Artist Marisabel Gonzalez

• Korynn Morrison • Season 1 • Episode 3

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:14:15

Send us Fan Mail

Daring Creatively: Unfiltered is an Australian art podcast where Sydney-based contemporary artist Korynn Morrison picks up the phone, drops a surprise word into the conversation, and hits record.

In this episode Korynn calls Venezuelan-born Australian artist and medical medical professional Marisabel Gonzalez. The surprise topic is how your life informs your work.

For Marisabel, that connection runs deeper than most. She spends her days reading the body in layers through ultrasound, and her nights building paintings in layers in an open-air treehouse studio in the bush. After a corneal transplant that literally changed the way she sees colour, and a studio move that pushed her practice into raw natural light, her work is undergoing its most significant evolution yet.

In this honest, unplanned conversation two artists talk about painting outdoors, what eye surgery does to your relationship with colour, imposter syndrome before a big show, creating pigment from grape skins with a Hunter Valley winery, the fine line between commercial gallery direction and genuine artistic growth, and why sometimes the only way to save a painting is to completely destroy it first.

If you love art podcasts, conversations about the creative process, or the real behind-the-scenes life of a working Australian artist, this one is for you.

LINKS

Marisabel on Instagram HERE

Check out her website HERE

Upcoming Events:

The Corridor project's artist-in-residence May 17th to 22nd.

Krinklewood Wynery Collaboration May 30th and 31st. Marisabel's artworks will be on display in the cellar until the end of June.

Leda Gallery duo exhibition with Raina Thomson. June 5th to 14th, with a ceremony or closing event on June 13th. 

New episodes drop whenever the call happens.

Join My Inner Circle: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/mailing-list

Visit My Website: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/

Find me on Instagram HERE


SPEAKER_03

My guest today is my beautiful friend Marisabel Gonzalez, an Australian contemporary artist born in Venezuela. Marisabel has spent her life working within the medical industry, and that clinical way of seeing the body has become the foundation of her entire visual language. Her paintings return to ideas of connection, healing, and shared humanity. She begins with the body and allows colour, gesture, and texture to lead towards something more universal. Layers of paint, stitched threads, bandages, and fragments of text echo the processes of mending and transformation. She's had solo shows in Sydney, Düsseldorf and beyond. She won the Collaborate Women's Art Prize in 2023 and has been a finalist in many others, including the Paddington Art Prize, the Northern Beaches Environmental Art Prize, and the St Columbus Art Prize. Her work is held in collections across Australia, Europe and Singapore. She's currently represented by Haki House in Sydney and has an exhibition coming up at Leader Gallery in Newcastle opening this June. I've been watching Maritz Ball's work evolve for a while now and I knew this conversation was going to be really special. So let's dive in. The topic I gave her today was how your life informs your work. Let's dive in. Hey guys, welcome to Daring Creatively Unfiltered, where I call up an artist's friend, throw a surprise topic into the conversation, and hit record. No plan, no prep, no agenda. Just two creatives having a chat. I'm Karin Morrison, Australian artist, cup overflowing personality, and someone who genuinely gets way too excited talking about the creative life. My guests are artists at every stage of the journey. And the conversations that happen when nobody's performing, those are the ones that we really need to hear. So grab a coffee, get into your studio, and come hang with us. This is Daring Creatively Unfiltered. Let's go. Did you hear that little tone that just went, I did? Yes, yes, I did. Sorry. I'm good. I've descended into like a state of chaos here. I'm like, you know, when you've been in your creative vortex for like so long and then you have a day at home and you look around your house and you're like, oh my God, things have gotten out of hand here.

SPEAKER_00

Tell me about it. It's what happens before any exhibition, any big event.

SPEAKER_03

It's nuts, isn't it? And it's like you've got your blinders on to absolutely everything. And I got home today and um I thought to myself, because it's my daughter's birthday coming up as well. And so I've got organization to do for that. I've got all my admin stuff. And I thought, I just need to pencil in one day at home. And so today is that day. And I've literally woken up this morning and I've been like, oh my God, I need more than one day. I need more than one day here.

SPEAKER_00

I hear you. It's the same year, like things that like they just build up, the mess keeps building up. And then I am a bit OCD with cleaning and things being in place. And then I go on the weekends when everyone is around the house. And instead of resting, I just go, okay, military fashion, everyone. We're cleaning from 8 a.m. till 3 p.m. Then I go in a crazy spur of, you know, like not just the inside the house, but let's let's do the windows, let's do the outdoor, let's do all the garden.

SPEAKER_03

I get it. I mean, I love doing my plants. Don't get me wrong, it takes me about an hour and a half to water all the plants in my house. There's so many of them. But even my poor plants, like I can tell when things are in a bit of a state of array because plants hold all the energy and the chaos from their house. Oh, they start looking at you like, are you not noticing me? That's exactly what is happening right now. I've got like these beautiful plants that have like um, I don't, I think they call them spider plants, and they're kind of droopy-looking plants that have like a little almost looks like a pom-pom at the end. And I came home after this last week, and I've just I sat down this morning to do some journaling and stuff, and I looked and I thought, oh my god, the poor pom-poms, they're all dried out. Like, anyway, you could we could talk about plants all day. Hey, you want to know your surprise topic? All right, okay. How your life informs your work. Right. I thought because you've moved your studio back to your house. By the way, I really it's so cool seeing that you're like kind of painting in amongst the trees as well. How's that going for you?

SPEAKER_00

Uh oh my goodness. Well, this morning I've been interesting because I was uh finishing a really big painting and it started raining, and uh I didn't want to leave the that painting down in the open space because it can get really windy, and then I have there's been moments when I go and walk in there and all the canvases are in the floor and everything had been weathered and it's a mess. And although it will look beautiful and give texture to a very brand new work, when you're just about to finish, you don't want to work to that sort of flagellation. So I get it. Uh it was raining, and I had to kind of quickly grab that canvas on top of my head and run upstairs with it because I didn't want to leave it there. As soon as I walk in, then five minutes after that, it stopped raining, and I was like, oh gosh, I could have just waited a little bit, but I was very impatient to bring it back in.

SPEAKER_03

So it does get a fair amount of weather under there because you're still covered, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00

I only have a roof, really, and it's a really, really high roof. So I am a victim of uh wind, sun, um you know, insects, mosquitoes, leeches, snakes, you name it. Everything goes in there, dust. Uh everything.

SPEAKER_03

So you might as well call it plain air paint painting, really.

SPEAKER_00

It is actually almost like if you if I didn't have that, I mean, that roof is really not doing anything for me because it's like seven meters away from where I am. So yeah, it's almost plain air. Um, I am actually calling, I I'm working on a couple of projects now, but uh specifically one of the projects is for a show that I'll be having in Newcastle at Lila Gallery. Oh, fantastic! Yeah, and I'm calling that collection weathered because it's been the consequence, really suffered the whole, you know, the whole process in the studio. When I came here, there were paintings that have already started in the old studio and I finished here. And I feel that they didn't actually represent what the new space had done to me. Um but this collection, the the weathered one and and and everything that's happening now, like also some other uh stuff that is going on in in uh I just can't say much yet, but uh we keep our lips shut.

SPEAKER_03

We say stay tuned.

SPEAKER_00

Stay tuned. All of the things that have been coming up from like since we moved have been really um, you know, uh a result of me dealing with the environment, which has been really interesting because uh I don't know if this is gonna move away from your question, but I have somehow, I mean, obviously I have changed and we change as humans and we evolve. Not we don't become someone else, we just evolve in a different or or or or not, we just evolve, we changed it. And I feel the work has been doing that, but I've been holding it back uh for a bit, and I actually wrote yesterday my for my newsletter subscribers an email about holding back, and what was I really protecting uh when I was holding my paintings back in the sense that I didn't feel confident of showing any of this. And I've been really sitting on this question now that you know the exhibition works are finished and the works for the other two projects are finished, and I've been thinking, why have I been hesitating so much? Which is usually not something that will happen to me. And um I don't know, I think I've been protecting myself, uh not the work, it's been me, and it's been it's been pro because the words have changed in a way that they are showing more natural components to it, and the shapes and the forms are like morphing from cells into blobs of nature. Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I can see that. I know, but I've been afraid of showing it because again, the imposter syndrome comes up and it's like, oh, you know, this is very different. But are you saying that it's like it's it?

SPEAKER_03

So are you saying that this is different from like, oh, by the way, congratulations on your um St. Columbus entry? Like, this is the one I'm talking about. Is this kind of what you're talking about? Like what you've done in that St. Columbus web. What's that one title that got in?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, well, that's interesting you're asking that because that was the last painting that I made for my solo show last year, the the Red Red Natura show. Yes that painting is called uh Field Notes from the Body of the Earth. I love that. I was yeah, I was and I never made it to the uh solo show because I couldn't finish it on time. But I was actually towards the end of that show starting to look at the land uh more as a living thing. And because I keep on looking for relationships between body and nature, I was more stunning, okay, what is the land as such, like um in considering the fact that I work with a palimpsis concept, and land is the result of a palimpsest, really, because you know, any person that works in geology will be able to tell you about you know layers and erosions and changes and da-da-da. So I was really, you know, diving into this conversation, and then I moved to this house and and I started painting from a tree house. So this land concept actually uh became a segue to one of the projects that I had worked on and will be revealed in May. Uh but also it opened up more of this. Um it almost like gave me permission to kind of go, okay, Marisabel, you are okay to move a little bit further away from the body and understand the land as a living thing. And this is what basically I think I've been working on and protecting all somehow myself of talking about this because I was being an idiot, considering and fearing that uh, you know, it it looks different, but it it I don't know, it looks somehow different, but not that different.

SPEAKER_03

It depends. Do you know what is interesting? Do you know what I've just rem remembered in saying that? Like the the body and the landscape. What if it's so you know how you were battling for so long about you know, giving up some days on your day job so that you could invest more time with your work and all of that sort of stuff? It's almost like the the body is like a representation of like your career and the box that is your like kind of work life. And then you've figured out a way of connecting the body, but not in such a literal way, and so it's like you're moving away from like an into your art more, if you know what I mean. Does that resonate?

SPEAKER_00

It yeah, it does, but at the same time they are so linked because at that time when I actually um drop all the works, all the days of sorry, all the days of clinical uh work, um, I couldn't I couldn't paint. Like I like I my my duel was dry, like that that little fountain where I drained creativity from was completely dried, and I had to actually take clinical work back because that's where I see it from. So somehow those images are still represented here. But it's like I think I'm probably understanding this from a more universal concept and how we, you know, um somehow if you break the image or whatever, I mean I I say the image because I'm working with images all day in the clinical environment, but if you break everything down and go to the cellular level and then from there go into like components inside every cell, we all go back to you know, electrons and neutrons and the same components, like you know, we're all made out of the same. So it's almost like understanding how um, you know, the evolution of different things, and we are only part of this big system, and we are very pretentious as humans, thinking that we kind of own the crown of you know, being the kings of nature, just if that makes sense. It's like more um, I think I'm seeing this more of a on a continuum rather than two separate things.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm so excited to see how this has evolved in your work. And I think it's one of those things as well that I mean, I don't know many people that operate in the world without having some form of calling back to nature. Like I think deep down in all of us, it's like what I'm dealing with a lot with my work and the research that I've been doing is into like the wild woman archetype at the moment and how that has actually informed a lot of my landscapes. And I think about the landscape as a whole and about how we represent the landscape. And when you look at the landscape, it never softens for our comfort, right? It just rebirths itself, it keeps expanding. And I think that that expansion is what I've been tapping into as well. And it's like, I don't know about you, but I've felt really called back out literally into nature. I've been doing heaps more plain air stuff at the moment than I normally would have. And I think maybe you having the studio so open air at the moment, are you finding yourself pulled to kind of simplify in any way? Like that's what I'm being pulled to do at the moment. It's really bizarre.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, yeah. It's been interesting because you know, when I think about when I started painting, I actually was painting landscapes, but it was for a very different reason. Uh, I think at that time my uh landscape painting had to do with um I had just arrived to Australia, we and that was was when it became really important to me. Uh and I was trying to find links between Australian landscape and Venezuelan landscape, and I, in a way of feeling or trying to make me feel that I belonged here. And and that's how my real art career started because before that it was very partial. But when I started painting in Australia was when everything happened to me, and it was out of trying to find a feeling of belonging. Well, when when we became then Australian citizens, that need of feeling that I belonged here uh was somehow like I was validated, I became an Australian citizen, and I didn't need it to prove anything to anyone else, particularly to myself. And that's when medicine started taking over my art practice. And it's interesting to see how now that I'm back painting in nature, I'm kind of like going, well, all of these uh forms that I'm used to work with are taking are morphing into a natural shape, more or less. Some paintings are more obvious, where the natural landscape becomes more obvious to the beholder of the of the painting, but some others are still very, you know, morphicky and and very abstract in the sense that somehow I'm in my trying to go deeper in the body. And if you think about when I'm doing ultrasound, I'm actually going through the layers of tissue, and those echoes that I see back on the screen are the reflection of very small parts of your body, and that's how the image is constructed. So when I'm doing that, this process in my studio, because this is how my brain works, it works in layers and it breaks it works breaking down the image to the minimum component possible. And when you think about it, all of these landscapes or or whatever they are, I don't know how to call them, uh, are also the same views as if you were looking through a microscope. It's the same kind of environment, really. Um, and maybe because I've also been able to sneak out um into the hospitals uh pathology lab and um having a look through their uh slides a bit because microscopes picture is actually repeated throughout nature, and that's what I'm basically doing. I'm basically repeating patterns that you see on microscopic structures into the bigger environment, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's fascinating. So there is still like such a direct correlation between how your life involved like informs your work. Like that has been like a current through line. Well, ever since I've known you.

SPEAKER_00

Always in it, and yes, it is still there, it's just happening in a different way. But in the other studio before, that other studio was incredibly dark. And in the sense, I in that sense I took advantage of the darkness of the studio because it was similar to my ultrasound room, that it's all dark, and I kept on projecting ultrasound pictures on stop of on top of the natural picture that I was using, and then I kept on like sketching over and over and painting that way. But in this space where I cannot keep on doing those projections that I used to do before, I'm actually working, and I'm not even working, I'm actually struggling and painting with natural light that changes through the day, and not just that changes through the day, but where I'm painting is literally like if you think about the top of the trees, is the opposite, like I'm like further down, and the light also changes because I'm in the middle of the bush. So depending on what sort of tree is creating shadows on the painting, all of a sudden I'm putting there a yellow that I think looks great, and then when the shadow goes off, then the yellow is almost fluorescent because it was just being in the shadow before. So I'm really struggling to control that light play.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, but they become like collaborations in that way. It's almost like you're now collaborating with nature in order to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'm not collaborating with nature, I'm just surrendering.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, cool. I was gonna say it's like either a battle, it's a battle or it's a surrender. It's like that battle.

SPEAKER_00

Surrendering's good.

SPEAKER_03

But it's like I have this like location that I've been revisiting for like plain air sketchbook work lately. And it's like there's okay, so it's like this waterfall area, but there's this off-track that no one knows about, and where it actually takes you is underneath the waterfall. So you essentially walk into the cave.

SPEAKER_00

And so you're beautiful.

SPEAKER_03

And so I've spent years looking at this one waterfall from one perspective, and that's all being shifted now. So now I'm the one sitting in the dark looking out at the light, and it's been um similar to what you're explaining. It's the shift in the perspective. I didn't realize. How difficult it would be to navigate, like especially with all of my like colour blocking layers and everything that I have to consider. But yeah, I went through this phase of sitting there in the mud, in the dark, looking out at the light. And I remember the first day I sat there with a sketchbook. I was like, I felt like I'd never done art before. And it's like, I don't often get like a little bit awkward around a sketchbook. I'm pretty immediate to get started and just, you know, look and put and do all of that. And I was honestly sitting there going, I don't know what to do with this. And so I had to go and revisit the same location probably 10 times to even get a bit of a rhythm happening. Anyway, it's it is what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00

But I can see, I can see what you're like, I can imagine your work voice like the inside of the waterfall. Looking at the waterfall from the other side, I would really be looking forward to seeing what comes out of that because that sounds really interesting. Um, I don't know. I it made me think about you know all of these impression experiences that I mean I you I love the uh uh that period in in art and that movement, but I haven't visited it for a long time until the other day someone told me, oh, that painting looks a little bit monetishy. And I was like, hmm. I mean, to me it was not that, but I was like, okay, so I went back and I started going back to and revisiting this impressionist work, and yeah, because they were working with light and just the quick impression of what the light was doing in those five minutes, because you don't get much more than that. Like it's a shift that happens all the time, and if you're lucky to get it, uh then great. But uh, but yeah, I think that um I don't know, maybe we're reacting to the immediacy of it. Um I think uh I don't know, like I I I know that I have become really slow at work, it's really, really slow. Um because then probably it's because the light situation changes and then the colors and the layers that I am applying keep on constantly looking different. Um and that has been a challenge for me in this new space, uh, on top of you know everything else nature has thrown at me.

SPEAKER_03

How have you been navigating putting together a like a whole show? Is it something where you've been like, do you work on multiple at once or do you tend to like rest in one painting for a while?

SPEAKER_00

No, I usually work on a lot at uh a few at times because I feel like um it it well, one thing is that I work in layers a lot, so I have to let them dry a bit. And by the time the last one is finished, I can you know come back to the first one. And that gives me uh and I like them to also talk between themselves and thinking, okay, I mean, you know, we all love a good show, but what happens after the show, which paintings I'm going where, and how do you redistribute the work and move the work around? So I'm always thinking about that as well. Um, but yes, they I've I've worked, I I usually work on the whole thing at the same time. I just keep on swapping and changing from one to the other. So it can be a bit tight. I mean, one of the challenges of this space is that I don't have walls. Um so I don't have a place where I can hang them all at the same time and look at them. So I only have like construction. Uh how do you call those things? Construction metal, still, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Those like like stilt kind of, because you're in like a stilt house, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's one of those things. So but but I only have a few, so I kind of keep on leaning things against those and then just swapping them and going, okay, you two and you two together with these other two, and then keep on swapping them and see how they are looking. Now, in saying that, I just finished those the works for those projects, and now I am completing paintings that I need to provide at it, and those are being done one by one. Ah, and they big small. They are big, and that's one reason I can't fit bigger work in there. I have to go, I mean, one big and a few deals, but I cannot do more than two bigs at the same time. Yeah. So I but but at the same time, they still because I've just finished the works for the exhibition, they still have the same conversation that I've been working on. So it's it's like a continuum. It hasn't actually stopped, and I don't want it to stop. I want to keep on exploring this new, you know, shift. I'm feeling I'm I'm starting to feel comfortable with the change. Uh, I have to say that uh, yeah, as I said, I was just probably protecting myself and not showing much of it because I wasn't sure. But I feel that the language is coming out strong and it's still part of my evolution as an artist. And uh yeah, I shouldn't be concerned too much about it.

SPEAKER_03

I think sometimes the self-doubt, I think the self-doubt creeps in though at this stage, right before a show. Like it seems to be like uh an overarching pattern, at least in my practice, I feel that self-doubt creep in always right before kind of the work goes off. And I like I've been really happy. And then all of a sudden I look at everything, I'm like, oh wait, I don't know if I like it anymore. Oh shit. Are you sure? Yeah, that's that's what happens with me as well.

SPEAKER_00

And then you're like, oh well, you know, it's not like you get all the from all of the interviews like you have you've been interviewing a lot of people. I wonder if everyone knows of this, because it's always the same. You're right. Like, as soon as you're just about to show it, you're kind of like, uh, you're sure.

SPEAKER_03

I think it's I think it's normal for everyone. And it's like all the people like, and this is why this new format's so fun, because I'm just forever doing this all the time in the studio anyway, just picking up the phone and calling people. And it's funny because I find myself always calling the people that I know that have like an exhibition coming up, and I'm like, like, I think energetically, I'm like, oh, I might call them and just see how they're doing because in me, I'm like, oh, I remember how I feel at this stage.

SPEAKER_00

So no, you're so right. And it's you know what I would love, and because we're all in our studios working really isolated, and when we go out, is to you know, look at someone else's show and so on and so on. But the works are finished. I'll love if we could kind of get a group together and have a little show and tell kind of day. We can still be in our studio, but with our phones on our, you know, we can't do that. That would be amazing.

SPEAKER_03

That's a really good idea. Why don't why don't we put together an Instagram group? And um I think it'll be amazing. Oh, that I don't do you know what? I've got a a little group for the my BYO art sessions that I do. I don't know why I hadn't thought about putting together a group with like a bunch of artists that I've interviewed. That'd be really interesting. That's a great idea. All right. Let's do it. Another job. Okay. Give give a busy person something to do, right? No, but I do you know what? I think that there's something about um that's missing for a lot of us artists in way of that honest feedback. And I mean we can always go to our galleries and have those meetings and sit down. But the reality is we are so alone in our studios all the time. And I know one of the biggest battles for me is um like right when I feel it it is actually now that I think of it, I reckon it is a bit of self-doubt that creeps in. Like I get a work to kind of over the top of the messy middle stage where I'm pretty happy with it, but there might be something more that I can do. And that's kind of the feeling that I get. I'm like, but what if there's something more? And then inevitably I go in and I swear I'm like a queen of murdering my own paintings. Like I overwork them sometimes when I probably don't need to. And I think that is the point where it's after the messy middle, you're kind of getting it there, like it's pretty much there. And you just need a couple of people to look at it and for someone to jump on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. And look, sorry to cut you off because I was just thinking when you said about the overworking, I was just thinking, I'm pretty sure Tiago, because Blast does it, would have told you so many times what the hell have you done that was really already like three layers before.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Yeah, yeah. But you know what it is? It's like a little defiance as well. And it's like, I've got to be really happy with the work. At the end of the day, if if a collector was to walk into the space and say, Hey, I love that exactly the way it is, if I wasn't 100% happy with it, I wouldn't be convinced to just stop painting. But I think that this is certainly a conversation that I have been having with myself. So I'm just gonna turn this tap on here and dine for a glass of water.

SPEAKER_00

Um you go, and you know what? I think because I mean, I've got a question that I always um ask myself, and probably this is what I have become really slow. Is that when I think something is ready, I always leave it there for a while. I mean, and a while could be anything from two weeks to a whole year, okay. Uh and it's always like, could I live with this work? Like if I was gonna buy this, could I live with it? And will not just live with it, but can it grow with me as I change in life? Like as I go through the years, can this work grow with me? And it's a question that I always ask, and probably that's why I've been so slow because I keep on asking this from the works, and I kind of go like, Well, would you survive out there? You know, you don't want to send your children and to struggle in the world. Like, would you survive uh, you know, life on some other's you know, uh journey through their own experiences? And I think that's really important, but at the same time, somehow, you know, if you have a gallery, um, I think probably like you know, you would like your galleries to also give you feedback and help you grow in that way and and give you direction without necessarily that direction being a commercial direction. Correct.

SPEAKER_03

I think there's a fine balance, isn't there, in listening to what's selling versus listening to that's right.

SPEAKER_00

Because they may they might say, oh look, this just you know keep on working with this and da-da-da, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're supporting your growth. It might mean that that work is actually selling and they would like to keep on you know supporting you financially in that way, but are you gonna grow in that direction? Which going back to your the group, I think that's why it's so important that we do this within artists because there's no agenda. Um true, yeah, very true. You are right. And and I don't know, uh, and if a gallerist is ever gonna listen to this, they might, you know, shut me off and say that I'm wrong. And I would love to work with I would love to work with a gallery that actually supports proper growth as an artist without the commercial interest behind it. But it's understandable. I mean, there are a business and they need to keep on, you know, being viable because we want that for them and for us and for everyone that is part of that gallery.

SPEAKER_03

So um I think I think sometimes it's also asking the questions, like when I'm seeking advice from people or honest feedback. One of the questions I ask, and I ask my husband this when, and he actually has a very, very good eye because he has a graphic design background. He is he's a really logical person, but he has this kind of real playful creative side as well. And so he will pick up different things in my work than I will pick up. And the question I always ask him is is there anything annoying you? Because I think when when we've gotten the the work over the messy middle and it's kind of could be there, but kind of could not, it's almost a thing where you wanna, like, when I stand in front of my work, I think, what's pissing me off here? And inevitably there'll be one area that I've kind of been chewing on or, you know, trying to attack more or trying to over-excavate or needing to layer up again. And that's the area that's kind of the block for me. And so once I pick up my own annoyance, then I can't see anything else. And I can't see it as a whole because I just get stuck with that one obsessive thing that I'm trying to fix.

SPEAKER_00

What do you do? How do you fix it? Like, do you go drastic on it and make make it worse?

SPEAKER_03

So they do it to do you know what? I I'm a proper murderer. So, for example, all of the works, uh, so the works that are going to Canada. Um, so there was a couple of trees in that lot of work, and I sculpted them all up, I sanded them, and there was something about the colours that they needed a little bit more contrast, and they just weren't like it just wasn't working. And sometimes that does happen with my work. Like I'll just keep sanding and sanding and sanding and sanding until something really catches my eye. And I kind of just kept sanding and nothing was catching my eye. And I thought, uh, well, this sucks because what happens is once I sand, the texture disappears. So essentially I have to re-sculpt the whole painting before re-excavating again.

SPEAKER_00

And so I was gonna ask you, it would yeah, I that was gonna be a question I was just gonna ask you. Like, what happens if you sand too much? Is that possible? So, yes, it is possible.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. And I think I'm always searching because I haven't I try to be organized, I try to colour swatch everything out, but inevitably things get missed. And so I don't really remember how many layers and in what order they are and all of that. So I just sand, once there's like an area of beautiful colours that are really working together, I kind of send out from there. And what happened with these ones was yeah, it was just a bit of nothing. And I said to T, Can you come upstairs and just look? And his first reaction always tells me everything because he's either like, oh wow, that's so cool, or he says nothing. And it's a bit like meh. And that's how I was feeling about it as well. And I just said, I don't have time to re-sculpt these entire paintings and basically repaint them now. And I said, and they're a bit meh, they're a bit dead. And he's like, Yeah. And I was like, okay, all right. So my gut feeling is correct. And he's like, no, no. He's like, yes, you can. You can do anything. Like he's got a lot of self-belief. Like I get in a bit of a rut and get a bit ticked off when things don't, you know, sand and look beautiful straight away. But those trees, they were a real battle. And I did. I had to go back to basics and re-sculpt them back up and then resand, and then I had to touch up, like they were a battle. And at the end, I ended up being very, very happy with them. So it warranted it. But always my work takes a drastic change to fix. Um yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How do you navigate that? Like the messy middle to that finish stage. How do you deal with that?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I think it's because I'm not thinking that on the end.

SPEAKER_03

So that's the same thing. Yeah, so you're not feeling pressure, you're not feeling pressure to complete them. Ah, and that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00

I yeah, no, I don't. Um which is for instance, let's say if I'm gonna have a show, um I start working very, very, very, very ridiculously early so that I don't have the pressure of time. Yeah. Um because then I I know that I can leave a painting sitting in there for a while without uh feeling that I've got to feel finish it. But in saying that, that doesn't mean that I don't struggle. I do struggle. There are works that uh I might have fallen in love with, except for one little part of the painting. And then, as you said, I can kill it because in trying to fix that little part of the painting, I end up messing up and creating a whole new work. Yeah, I get it. But I find that when I am attached to a part of the work and I go, well, look, all of this is working nicely, and uh I'm attached to a part that I don't want to touch, uh, then that makes it even harder for me to fix what I don't like than when I go radical on it and I go, Look, I love you, but you can't be here. You're not part of this work, and I go radically and just completely make a massive mess and make it really ugly to then make it better. So it's it's easier for me to destroy and then construct rather than to try to edit and preserve an area that I love only because for some reason I decided that I was gonna love that, or maybe because I think I've done so many layers on it of different washes that I will never be able to reproduce that color ever again because I'm not organized as you. I don't keep track of the order that I put the layers on. Oh, they're not that organized, believe me. Sometimes I freaking I freaking love this color and the transparencies, but I cannot reproduce it. So I get fixed on an area of the work that I don't want to touch when the rest is a mess, and I try to fix the rest, and then these two parts of the painting stop talking within each other because one is super work and the other one stayed, you know, a few days behind. So uh I think uh yeah, it it works better when I am radical with with fixing stuff. The other thing is that um I also use my husband, uh, he's not creative in that sense, but he is a burger. So can you imagine how the level of the most the most practical person in the world, so he will be able to criticize from pricing to whatever even the materials use, whatever. Yeah, so um when he's happy, he's happy. But the the worst happens when he tells me something he definitely doesn't like, and I probably would that would be the painting that I personally love. And this happens every single time. The one that I love, he goes like, oh, really?

SPEAKER_03

But it's the same at that when they go off to the exhibition, the first one to sell is always the one that you were the most unsure about.

unknown

I know.

SPEAKER_03

That happens every time.

SPEAKER_00

Every single time. We're the worst judges of our work. Again, that's why we get together and talk about these things. We do someone else. We have someone else uh, you know, probably helping us or coming with ideas that we might just be so stuck in our own little brains and thoughts that we just kind of go, oh, actually, yeah, that might work. Um, yeah, we're too isolated and and it's nice to. That's why when you said, Can I ring you? I was like, Of course you can make me happy to have a chat.

SPEAKER_03

We all have, even though we love our own creative time and our own creative space, I just think that there's there's something um really important about just landing in a conversation and being heard. And all the conversations I've had with people, this has kind of been like this, you know, certainly a theme that everyone carries with them. And I think the other thing is that when we connect like this, we're also celebrating one another. And I think there needs to be a lot more of that in the creative industry. Um, like I think it's one of my real key values in everything that I do. Kindness is my number one value. And so when I go out and I go to shows and I genuinely, I genuinely want to celebrate those artists and celebrate the work and find out more about it. And it just lights you up when you can have a real conversation with another artist. Like, who was I talking to the other day? Oh, beautiful Teresa Hunt, um, who's got work going down to New Zealand for the fair down there with curatorial. With curatorial, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be those three. So it's um Simon Cardwell, Teresa Hunt, and Alyssa Mixad. They're oh my gosh, I can imagine it now. It's gonna be so beautiful and dark and moody and I could see it going so well with the New Zealand market. But I was standing with Teresa at another opening and we just got chatting and we ended up going down this rabbit hole and talking about like the breadcrumbs of our history of art. Like, you know, when you look through kind of like your last, I don't ever know how many years of creating, and you actually stop and reflect on the breadcrumbs that led you back to where you are now. And we had the most honest, vulnerable conversation, and I got so much out of it. And it is these really honest conversations that I think are really important for people to hear because I think sometimes creativity gets put on this like poetic, polished pedestal. And it's totally the opposite. I don't get that. I don't get why all of you know the studio selfies and everything, you know, they're so polished. And it's like really our lives are complete chaos.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, well, look, at the end I think it's you know, like um like when you think about it, every like we're all created humans, like everyone is creative in in in in the essence of creation, if that makes sense. But I think with artists, um because we are so isolated in our studios, even when you are working on communal spaces, you are on your space when you're working in your own head. And we are all somehow looking for connection, whether it's through our practice, like the like whether your work is about connecting, or whether you because what's what's the end goal for our artwork is to connect with someone else, otherwise there's no audience. So what's the point? Yes, you know 100%. We all create because we are needing an audience for to listen and to connect to, and it makes us every one of us incredibly happy and completely gives us a sense of worth when you have someone that really understands what you're trying to say, and they read your marks and put words that you cannot even say, and it's because they are connecting with it. Yes. So, how can we not be you know open for those kind of conversations? And and like I've never, thank goodness, met any artist that had been um not able to openly, you know, give advice or answer a question if you ask. Like I've never I know there might be people that is out there that is like that because not everyone is is happy to share knowledge, uh, but thank goodness I haven't run into any of those. And so so far. No, I have any that I have run into. I've always been beautiful people that is willing to connect and and that are willing to connect and that are just actually, you know, like eager to actually talk about it and talk about the work and how we we all really at the end, doesn't matter if you're talking, you know, your artist political or feminist or racial or whatever, the bottom line is that most of it is trying to make this place that we call Earth a better place. Yes, 100%. So, you know, even in even the darkest kind of art is is, you know, questioning basic, you know, philosophical topics that at the end lead to this. So that's right.

SPEAKER_03

It's like some of the most jarring work, like um, you know, like some of the work that like I have these conversations with my husband because he's a little bit more traditional than me. I'm like introducing him to this wild world that is art. And I mean, he's from a very traditional background, and so some things to him are quite jarring, and he'll have like a few judgmental things to say about stuff, and then I have to explain to him that contrast that you're feeling, that energy that you're feeling, that anger, whatever you've got there, that is the artwork. You basically just finished the artwork for the artist. Congratulations, you're right there. That is exactly what the artist was trying to get out of you. And he's like, uh, oh, like, I don't know, I don't even know how to think about my own brain anymore with all this art stuff. But it's it is fascinating to be, I think he's he's really good to be around when when we're going to exhibitions and whatnot. It's actually quite fascinating to hear his thinking behind things. Because he has a lot, a lot of good things to say, actually. But I think that so much can be changed with art. And, you know, you can either be one of those people that look at the state of the world and uh, you know, go down into the the well of pity or you can make good art. I think it's either all. I think you can have compassion, but I think you've got to be really careful not to get stuck into the negative vortex because the negativity also doesn't help anyone, you know? And the best thing that we can do is we can speak our three our feelings through our work. Um, we just all got to keep showing up, don't we?

SPEAKER_00

That's that's right. And I think, you know, one of the you know things that I mean art can handle is the paradox of having both things happening simultaneously and both being equally real. Like, you know, you can have uh, you know, uh with this as going on your example of the current situation of the world and feeling, you know, mortified and anxious about what's going on because we are all feeling this, but at the same time, paradoxically, you feel equally grateful for the life you have and the place you live in. And you know, and and art is a good vessel to hold these paradoxes that are you know constantly part of our lives. Uh, sometimes things don't have to be radically one thing or the other. It could be okay to sit in the middle when those two things are true, equally true.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, I I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and look, there's so many examples of that, but yeah, I think uh yeah, art is a good place to to present or propose this type of conversation. Yeah, absolutely. It's a safe space for that, I would say.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and it's I mean it's one of those things, like it's actually the like I think sorry, I lost my train of thought there. What I was gonna bring up was your your new show. Like, do you because you've been producer, how long have you been producing the work for this show coming up at Leader Gallery? Are you?

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, yeah, yeah. I I started probably in October last year. Um officially, like officially started working on it uh around October. Before that, I was just playing and trying to find, you know, uh I moved to this place in July. Uh, it took me a while to settle. My husband had back surgery, it was a bit messy. So, roughly around October, I started like you know, sitting down properly, but then I had eye surgery. Oh, that's right.

SPEAKER_03

You did too. How did that affect things?

SPEAKER_00

Did you keep talking? So I ended up having a corneal transplant in one eye, and I still need to have the other eye done, but I'm on the waiting list for that transplant to become available. So interestingly, I now, oh gosh, this has been the other thing. I now see color and contrast in a very different way that I used to. And oh my god, that's fascinating. Well, it's really funny because proof of that is if I blink the eye or close the eye that had just been fixed and I'm looking through the eye that needs fixing, then that's the old way that I was looking at things. And uh I now realize why I was making so many bright and bold paintings before. It's because through that eye, I look like uh like if you were opening your eyes under water, under murky water, that's how it looks like because that is actually the problem I have. I have a retention of fluid in there. So because of that, all the colors were a bit muted. So for me to make something bright, I was actually making it incredibly or like overly bright. So someone else would look at it and go, ugh. And now I'm walking around. So the hospital where I work has a lot of my work hanging on, and I'm walking around with my six um formula for my eyes and the good eye now. Walking around looking at some older work and going, what the hell was I thinking with this guy?

SPEAKER_03

That is fascinating. I had no idea. Oh, now I'm even more curious to see what happens with this new work.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my goodness. Oh, so so when I'm painting, I'm kind of going like, okay, so glasses on, closing one eye, closing the other one, and I kind of go, okay, somewhere in between is the answer that I want somewhere in between these different visuals. Um so it's been very interesting. So going back to your question, yes, I started in October, then I stopped around December, January. I had my parents here that I hadn't seen for a whole 10 years. And then I surgery came up. But then when I started back working on them, it was like really long days, uh full days. So it it was like yeah, super like, you know, I had my husband and kids like bringing me lunch or reminding me, hey, you haven't eaten, like, you know, yeah, lunch is ready, come upstairs. Um, because I was literally like on top of it. But uh the works that I made for Lida are not as big as my usual sizes, they're a bit smaller, so I was able to also finish that on time. Um I'm working on a smaller format, which was an interesting challenge. Um, and then for the other project that I'm working on, uh, we're almost in May. I'm going to very I'm I'm going to basically let you know. Drop it, drop it, do it, do it, drop it here. Let me in on your secret. Um well, I'm working on a collaboration with Crinklewood Wines in the Haunted Valley.

SPEAKER_03

But you let me know about this a little while ago. You dropped this hint a little while ago. Oh, okay. Yeah, when you were in the studio last with me, I think you had that was not long ago.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, you just I think you had just kind of found out about it or something, but you didn't have any details to tell me. So tell me more. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, so it's been a beautiful project where um I was part of uh their the whole process of winemaking, like behind the scenes, you know, um, from harvesting to everything. And we've created some pigments out of the skin grapes. Um and with those pigments, I've created a couple of paintings for them. But we're gonna put so what's coming up, they're they're we're planning some beautiful things around it, and that is yeah, I'm not gonna say anything else, but I'm gonna wait for for the official news to come out, but yeah, like for for that other project, um uh the paintings were a little bit bigger than the leader paintings, uh, and then the biggest ones are going to Haki. So Haki is getting uh a whole new collection of different, like yeah, a bit of every size really, but most of the big ones are going to Haki. But well for a few reasons, you know, like they they have they have the space. Uh I've already sold lead paintings with them before, so we were gonna keep it um in that sense, uh, you know, a bit of a continuous, but but they're getting a bit of mix and match of of sizes, and then I've got um I keep I'm still working on my big my big manifesto.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know if you've got the one that was um at your old studio, the scroll with all the words.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love that. Love that yeah, so that painting had it's changed so much since the last time I showed that that work in 2023, and I'm looking at different venues of where to where to show it again to a bigger audience. Oh, you need institute an institutional base something three years down the track, yeah. What what what had happened and how the the work had changed and and all that, yeah. I have been tempted many times. So many people have come and asked me if I could part a bit of the a piece of the work for them and da-da-da, but no. It's still one one very long piece.

SPEAKER_03

I just think like I ever when I saw that uh it was a Hake, what it was at Haki, wasn't it? Yeah, that's where I saw it. And um I just thought it was like I got this like little projectional image that popped in my head of this object that gets carried with you throughout your entire life that actually doesn't ever get sold, but becomes like a history of like who you are. And it's just like, oh, I could see it one day at like some big institution rolled out or a book or something made. Like I would love to see so many elements and little things made into like a table coffee book to talk about various stages of your life or something. Oh, it's the most beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_00

I love that too. Don't ever cut it up, ever. No, yeah. I I did cut off a little bit, uh, only because I actually added that beat to another painting, but it was for a very specific reason. Uh that other painting is at Hackie now, and it's called the Event Recorder, and it's a very personal painting uh for me, and it needed to have that little piece of of the manifesto. So basically, the manifesto, I don't know if you remember, it's where I have written every single artist statement that I have used through the years, but it also became like a form of journaling, like all the sketching or all not the sketching, all the drafting that we kind of go through before we select the final words that go into any single you know document, but particularly the artist statement. So I did have to use that for that specific painting. Uh it's very it's a very conceptual work, but it's a very special one. But that's it. I I only cut it for that. And the rest, so I I keep basically what I do, I just bring it out every you know four months, five months, and I keep on working on it. Whenever I feel that there's been a big shift, I open it and I and I and I work on it. But it hasn't been documented since 2023. So I would like to document it now so that I can keep working on it. So I'm trying to absolutely don't know how to document it. I might have to ask Happy to please help me out with that one because I need to basically hang it again and take new photos. Uh before get a drone. I need to get someone that knows how to get a drone and and you and maybe open it up here in the bush where I am now and and get a new a new space for it's um uh for documentation before I keep on working on it because I think it's it's on a it's on a place now that it's got if I start working on it, it will shift. So I don't want to touch it until until I've done that yet.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, it's gonna it would be the most beautiful video one day of seeing how it evolved over years and years and years. Oh, I'm excited to see where that work goes. I love to see that. Yeah, I love to see that too. Yeah. Well, in finishing up today, is there anything you want to leave us with? Oh, you have to give me all the dates and details for your show at Leader, and I'll pop them all in the show notes. Um, so once we once we stop the recording, I'll get you to like email me all your stuff doing a headshot and all of that. Um I'll do that. Yeah, so we'll do all of that and I'll pop all the details that you want to share in the show notes and um I will I will have to lock it into my diary. Do you know what dates, what dates are there? Because I need to see if I can get there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's in Newcastle, so it's a bit of a drive, which is one of the reasons why we didn't want to do a big works because I have I haven't shown in Newcastle before, and I wanted to have like a very um like a very gentle introduction to the Newcastle audience. Uh, and we agreed that we were gonna do smaller sized work to um to make it like nice and soft and also like intimate. These new works are very intimate in a way. Uh the smaller format also allows for that. It almost like invites you in very quietly and you then stay there for a moment. They're beautiful. Um so we're bumping in on the 4th of June. So the exhibition opens uh on the weekend that is the long weekend in June, but we because it's a long weekend in June, we're going to have an event, not that weekend, so that people can go away and and have their little mini holiday. We're gonna have an event on the week after, which is on the 13th of June.

SPEAKER_03

13th of June. Yeah, I'm just writing that down right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I'm showing uh so it's a duo show actually with Raina Thompson. Um she is uh beautiful uh new uh Newcastle-based artist. And um yeah, it's uh and we're we're attempting because of the distance, we're attempting to have a couple of pieces that are going to be a collaboration between the two of us. Oh awesome! Um yeah, so it'll be beautiful, and and Raina has uh this distinctive uh language as well. Uh she's going to be bringing new experimental work, which I'm really looking forward to see. Uh, but yeah, we're working together towards the concept of the show and the ideas around it as well. So yeah, it's it's gonna be very nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, well, I am I'll try and yeah, send me the details. Um, just swing me an email, text you my email in case you don't have it. Um, but I will endeavor to try and get there to that opening. If I've got it in my diary early, I can usually work things out. If it's a day that um I can get someone to help me with Harlan, then I will see if I can be there. Or we might just make it a mummy daughter trip. She likes those.

SPEAKER_00

And then the Crinkerwood event, it's gonna be on a weekend. I'm not sure yet because we're setting, I mean, it's on the 30th and 31st of May. Um, but there's gonna be one day that it's gonna be dedicated to the members' club. Yes. And like and and collectors, my collectors. And then another day that it's gonna be um more like open to the public. So but there's gonna be a lot of lovely things going on around that weekend in the at the end of May. So it it seems like I'm basically like having to move myself to the Haunted Newcastle area for the next month. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, but that's so exciting. So many exciting things coming up for you. It's been so good to have a chat with you. Um and uh yeah, we need to get that group sorted. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. Leave it with me. Let me um yeah. Let me amazing. Let me go through my list of of folks because I think, yeah, I think there's something to that. And it doesn't need to be many people. Like we just need like a small, yeah, like a small crew of people that are willing to actually, there's no one that I talk to that isn't willing to be authentic and honest. I don't think I attract that kind of person. You are so everyone I know is brilliant. I love every single one of you creative souls that are my friends.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, it'll be amazing. We can, I mean, sometimes even like, you know, see these things as in, you know, like I'm going through this right now. It's like there's this art price, and which work should I put in? This one or that one? Why would I put it this one in? Why would I put that one in? Like, you know, what do I want out of it? Like, sometimes we hesitate so much, even with these little things. Not just like is the work or the concept of the work finished. It's it's even like you know, what which one should I put forward for this one or not?

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes it's not even asking direct questions. Like it's just having like I've had these times where my framer has walked into my studio and gone, oh, I love that. And I'll be like, Oh, do you really? What is it about? What do you like?

SPEAKER_00

Why yeah, why and what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's like I've completely bypassed over something that could potentially be brilliant, you know.

SPEAKER_00

But you know what? It's it's interesting because I find that sometimes I ask this question like on my newsletters, and and usually my newsletter subscriber list, they're very um they're beautiful and they're very responsive, and they actually will come back with an answer. But not many times, uh like sometimes you ask this question like why or what do you want to uh you know, what do you see here? Why is this exciting you or and then people is somehow I don't know, embarrassed to say anything. And we actually are looking for these answers. Come on and tell us.

SPEAKER_03

I think people when it comes to especially people who aren't artists, I think they get nervous making a comment because a lot of people consider themselves as, oh, well, I don't really understand art, so I can't really have an opinion. But it's actually quite we want to hear it. Exactly. So I think it's more our role to give people permission to have an honest opinion about things, even if they don't understand it. And um, like it's good that you're you're actually speaking to your mailing list from that perspective. I should probably do more of that actually. When I send my emails out, I haven't really done a blog for quite a while now.

SPEAKER_00

I'm probably this is otherwise it's a monologue. How boring is that?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, it is true. It is true. But you have a great rest of your week. And um, yeah, send me all the details and I'll pop them all in the show notes. And um, yeah, let's have another coffee date soon. It's my turn to come to your studio next. So you gotta let me know when we can do that.

SPEAKER_00

It is okay, after the after June, because next month is crazy. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. After the leader, after the leader show, let's just get that it's I I'm actually probably gonna need it because you know how we go into this low kind of awful space after show. Post exhibition calm down.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Maybe not, maybe it's not gonna happen this time. That's what I say every time. I'm like, I'm not gonna get it, I'm not gonna get post-exhibition calm down. I think it's inevitable.

SPEAKER_00

It does and it doesn't matter if the exhibition went well or not. It's just that I think our brains have been in overdrive for aziz for so long that all of a sudden we just kind of go like that's it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's exactly it. It's like the emotional energy that goes into producing a full show. I don't think it could even be described how much of you gets put into that. And then it's just like a it's a serotonin drop. You leave the show and you're like, oh, it's done. Now yeah, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_00

It's yeah, but uh, yeah, that'll be nice. Uh I'll I'll let's just get together. Let me know in during when, like after the leader exhibition, when you want to come. That'll be amazing. And look, thank you so much for calling me. I love this idea, and I love that uh, you know, it's so spontaneous and not fang, and we can just talk about anything. And now it's gonna be interesting that you're not editing this. Wow, I mean it's not a challenge, but I love it.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, unless someone says something really atrocious, I'm basically just taking them and putting them on. And I think, you know, it's the same as making art. Like we overthink and we over-question whether we should have said something, and that one thing will be something that really helps someone. So um, yeah, I think unscripted and unedited is definitely the way to go. And I think as well, like when you look at the scope of podcasts out there, they're very well planned and they're well documented, and the topics are very specific and people stick to the topics. And I think that's really good. Like we need podcasts like that, but it just doesn't align with who I am as a person. And I think that is where it needed to have a change because I was done just talking to myself all the time. Granted, I'll probably do some solo episodes. Um but I just thought I've got to follow what really lights me up and what I do really well. And one of the things I do really well is have a chat with people. And it's like I could see like every exhibition and opening I go to, I make a new friend. And then usually what I'm doing is I'm backwards and forwards sending little voice messages over Instagram with them. And then I'm like, oh, this is all really good information that people could learn from. So anyway, we'll see how it goes. But I'm very excited. And the recordings that I've done so far, they've all been so varied and so different. And it's exactly what I want out of this new format to be fun.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I actually prefer this um format of being spontaneous because I I don't know. Whenever I've been in a thing before and they give me the question, I think I overthink it, and then I just, yeah, this is much better. This is me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. All right, well, I'll chat with you soon, and um, yeah, I'll shoot you through my email and just send me whatever you need to go in the show notes, okay?

SPEAKER_00

One last thing. I can see how you're becoming South American in the way that it's hard to say goodbye.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my gosh, am I? My husband would be so excited. Uh, I'm gonna tell if you said that. I can tell. Like we've been saying goodbye like for five minutes. So yes, that's it. You hang up. No, you hang up. No, you hang up. Love it, love it. All right. Well, I'm gonna hang up first, okay? Okay, all right. Okay, good bye.